What Are Your Thoughts on the Subject?

Tony Mase here...

Not long ago, a reader asked me a great question that, unfortunately, I don't have a "definitive" answer to.

Here it is:

"Hi Tony,"

"I came across 'The Secret' almost two years ago and my brother led me your website approximately nine months ago."

"These past years have been great learning years for me and of tremendous improvement. I have been studying and applying the principles learnt in The Science of Getting Rich in my daily life. But there is one intriguing question in my mind which I need help to clarify."

"I have a great difficulty to understand the following statement in the The Science of Getting Rich:"

"'Remember, however, that the desire of Substance is for all, and its movements must be for more life to all; it cannot be made to work for less life to any, because it is equally in all, seeking riches and life.'"

"'Intelligent Substance will make things for you, but it will not take things away from some one else and give them to you.'"

"Being a professional trader, I only make money if someone else loses money and my loss represents someone else's win. Does that mean I have to quit trading?"

"I would be very glad for your assistance."

"Thanks."

Good question...

And one I've been asked a number of times in a number of different ways over the last several years.

Unfortunately...

Although I've been asked about it numerous times and have put some thought into it from time to time, trading in financial instruments as it relates to the philosophy of Wallace D. Wattles is one of those things that remains unsettled in my mind.

On one hand...

One could make the case that traders help "make markets" thereby creating value.

For example...

In the world of stocks, let's say Jane and John Doe decide to "cash out" the Microsoft stock they've been holding for years in order to pay their son or daughter's college tuition. Their being able to sell it when they want to, at the price they want to get for it, depends on someone being in the "market" at that particular time willing to buy it at that price.

Thus, the "trader" who buys it from them, even if for short-term profit, is giving them more in "use" value than he/she receives in "cash" value and is thus in line with Wallace D. Wattles' philosophy.

On the other hand...

I firmly believe that the greed, reckless speculation, and overall "I don't give a crap about anyone else as long as *I* make a buck" mentality of the financial markets in general has played a *MAJOR* role in the financial mess the world finds itself in today.

So...

The bottom line is...

I'm still somewhat "up in the air" on this one. :-)

Those are my thoughts on the subject...

What are yours?

I and I'm sure the person who asked this question, along with a whole bunch of other folks who have the same question, would appreciate hearing your thoughts on the subject of trading in financial instruments as it relates to Wallace D. Wattles' philosophy...

You can share them by clicking on the Comments link at the bottom of this post.

I look forward to hearing them and answering more of your questions in upcoming blog posts or Constructive Science Newsletter articles...

Stay tuned! :-)

To your success,

Tony

P.S. If you have a question you'd like to see me answer in an upcoming Constructive Science Newsletter article, you can ask me your question by going to:

http://www.asktonymase.com

Feel free to ask me anything you like as long as it's a *serious* question and at least somewhat related to the writings of Wallace D. Wattles and/or the subjects he wrote about (which leaves a lot of latitude).

Although I can't answer your question individually, I'll do my absolute best to answer it in an upcoming Constructive Science Newsletter article (or, if your question doesn't lend itself to a newsletter article, possibly a blog post, ebook/info-product, or update) so everyone benefits. :-)

Here's the link again:

http://www.asktonymase.com

P.P.S. Not already a Constructive Science Newsletter subscriber? Based on the scientific writings of Wallace D. Wattles, it's the greatest goldmine of cutting edge information and practical advice on health, wealth, success, happiness, relationships, and a whole lot more ever crammed into one place!

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Comments

[Tony Mase]

A few questions in afterthought for those who know more about this particular subject than I...

In reference to:

"... I only make money if someone else loses money and my loss represents someone else's win."

1. Specifically how does a trader "only make money if someone else loses money" and specifically how does his or her "loss represents someone else's win"?

2. Is this statement, which I've heard numerous times from traders, really true or has it been regurgitated so many times without question that it's accepted as true, regardless of whether it is or not?

3. Does this whole matter maybe rest on the specific type of trading being done, the techniques being employed, and/or the attitude of the trader?

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the subject.

Tony

[Els van Dongen]

hi Tony,

in regard to the question and the answer in this blogpost, I would like to add a viewpoint that might clarify things a bit.

I also read "the secret", and my general feeling about it was: this a very extended explanation of the tenth commandment. The one which is the most misunderstood of all.
Dutch is my native language, so I hope I have the right translation.
the commandment speaks of not "covet" this and that of somene else, what is usually taken as similar to stealing.
In my opinion these words are meant different. Men should not covet directly the belongings of his fellowmen, but sure he can get his imagination and his creativity at work, to "covet" his/her own partner, his/her own house, his/her own whatever. The desires that live in your heart are to be directed to God, the Infinite Spirit.This will give the best possible outcome for everybody involved.

In this way people stop living on the competition level and go on to the creativity level. As a businessperson you can do the same.

For me this is what the Secret and W.Wattles are aal about.

[Lou]

As a devote Wallace Wattles, Charles Haanel and Napoleon Hill follower, I have tormented over this question to no avail also. Currently I am in IT mgmt and a few years ago it was revealed that trading commodities was to be my next path followed. Applying the priciples of WW, everything fell into place as the correct opportunities, teacher, methodology, etc. were all attracted into my life. But still underneath it all is this nagging question. My gain is someone else's loss. My only conclusion is that we are looking at it totally on a monetary level and maybe we need to look at it on a different higher level. The intelligent substance is not directing the universe solely on a monetary basis. Some of my greatest experiences and growth have come after monetary loses. What better device to get your butt moving and force you to re-evaluate and look deep inside!! Someone loses their money and in return they get a powerful experience. Maybe a life changing experience. Maybe I'm just redirecting their money for them to some other source for universal growth. It is all a little confusing when looked at on a lower level of consciousness but I'm sure it all works on a higher level otherwise I wouldn't have attracted these things into my life especially with all that I have learned over the last 5 years. The markets are a true collective consciousness and it may be possible that many things can be easily directed in there by the intelligent substance. I'm sure it's OK. Just believe!!

[Jay]

As a trader, you participate in an ocean like market. No one individual can realistically change the rising or falling of the sea. All individuals who are participating in the market do so based on the underlying risk of volatility. Each person dips their "cup" into the water and pulls out some and the water line does not fall. When that same person releases their water back into the market, the water line does not rise. However, the water that went back in and the water that was pulled out may be in differing amounts. May be more may be less. Either way, the oceans water line remains materially unchanged. Assuming there is not coercion or fraud connected with the trade, and the actors within the trade being seperated from one another by the market, then the two are not being influenced by one another. Therefore, a gain on one hand is not creating a loss on the other hand. According to Wattles, the earth has the capacity to reproduce itself completely so long as we (people) have a need to derive some thing from the earth. If we need more gold because we are a society where gold is a measure or a use to us, then there will be gold found in the earth. So it is with the markets, they will rise, and they will certainly fall. However, people will always creating value for themselves from it. I believe Wattles would look at the market as an example of the earths economy desiring to express the needs of millions of individuals from thought to reality. I do not believe the market is a zero sum game and for one to win, another has to lose. It is far to great for that level of connectivity. Your ability to provide guidance to your clients is an example of intelligent substance working through you as brought about by your clients whose thought of investing lead them to you. To convert their ideas into long term value when in the market and into use value when wholly or partially exiting the market.

[Pieter]

It is true that in the futures market one person's loss is another's gain. In the equity and other markets there is not this direct correlation. Keeping this comment only to the futures market then.

Answering the questions. Simply put, in the futures market you trade contracts, and the person taking the other side of the contract and yourself exchange money directly with each other, depending on who was right and who was wrong. So the statement is true for the futures market. It does not matter what type of trading is done or the attitude of the trader.

If one comes to the question of whether you, as a speculator in the futures market, add value, my answer is a definite YES.

1. You have already mentioned the fact that traders provide liquidity to the market.

2. Traders as a group provides price information regarding the instruments and commodities traded. Acting as a group to very quickly adjust to events and information as it happens. This is important for all decision makers in the economy.

3. Traders/speculators take the risk that others do not want. Hedgers who want to get rid of risk can do this in the futures market, and the speculater takes on the risk. Essentially the speculator gets rewarded for his efforts because of the risk he takes away from those who do not want it.

4. People take part in the futures market also for reasons other than making money. Some might do it for entertainment, some for other psychological reasons, sometimes only known to the participant's unconscious. The speculator, taking part in the market helps provide these other intangible values to other participants.

So, as a trader myself, I have no doubt in my mind that we provide a very valuable service to society.

[William]

As in all things, particularly having to do with Spirit [which is what we are talking about here] there is INTENT. When one wishes gain, without loss - if that is their intent, then one can expect the results they are calling for. This is why robbing a bank may only work momentarily.'-)

[Ken Medanic]

The answer to the trading question especially about futures trading is that all people trade their beliefs about the market, that is their belief about what they desire/deserve from the market or from life. They/we all choose the vehicle which best helps us work through and enjoy our experience and beliefs about life.Some of us choose the financial markets. Therefore when someone losses money in the market the Universe has given that person exactly what they wanted therefore nothing has been taken away from that person even though the other person say I made money on that transaction. In addition, just because someone sold a contract to me from which I have gained does not mean necessarily that he lost. He might have taken profits early. He might be hedging for an even bigger gain. Also if he did lose in financial terms that loss might have given him the necessary personal gain in the form of insight he has been searching for. His personal development is of much greater value than the money he maybe did or did not loss.

I hope this quick and short explanation helps all the futures traders our there.

Ken

[Rev. Dr. Garry J. Whatling (Ph.D.)]

In Light, Love, and Awakening to One and All,

Briefly, yet comprehensively, an individual spends his/her money (free choice + wisdom), projects/sends the money into the universe, circulates, hence causing effect of increase for one and all, even though there may be some individuals who misuse such funds and laws, yet, sooner or later he/she, who has so abused shall pay or reap his/her effects accordingly ... in essence, and in summary, nobody actually loses, only and always "gains" since it always circulates throughout the universe accordingly... Do hope this has been understood ... and awakens the application of such Law(s) ...

Multiple Blessings and Abundance to One and All ...

Rev. Dr. Garry
Metaphysician

[Gary Dashney]

In the very same context of God not taking from one to give to another, Wattles said that God would not decrease one man's opportunity in order to give it to another. He is no respecter of persons - and He is not divided against Himself. He wants the same opportunity for advancement for all - being in all - and desiring the advancement of all.

I believe in futures trading, the opportunity to win a trade is open to both parties equally at the start, is it not? Both parties voluntarily taking opportunity to win the trade. If no trickery or deception is in play, then opportunity exists equally to win for both at the start. Then there is no theft - no taking away "involuntarily" from one in order to give to another.

[Tony Heil]

When you play monopoly the dice and play money are not the thing. It's the game dynamics and interactions that are the thing. The enjoyment and the learning and maybe the self understanding that are the thing. All good games seem to have a dimension of love and humor backing the very serious effort of the players. I hope this view point helps.

[Phil Kidder]

The problem is that you are looking at the problem from your personal perspective. Stop looking at just your little distorted universe and view the larger real universe.

The person selling had a reason for doing so. He may be selling at a profit. You have no way of knowing nor should you care at what price be purchased.

He may be selling at a loss for many reasons. Maybe he needs a tax loss or just ready cash.

The universe is working as it should. You wanted to buy and he wanted to sell and you found each other. What could be nicer and easier?

[Mark Downer]

"'Remember, however, that the desire of Substance is for all, and its movements must be for more life to all; it cannot be made to work for less life to any, because it is equally in all, seeking riches and life.'"

"'Intelligent Substance will make things for you, but it will not take things away from some one else and give them to you.'"

"Being a professional trader, I only make money if someone else loses money and my loss represents someone else's win. Does that mean I have to quit trading?"

"I would be very glad for your assistance."

"Thanks."

I read the question above and I beleive that the people who take part in this industry are well aware of the risks involved and choose to take those risks.

If You as a professional trader look at the industry in a wholisitic way and come to the conclusion as to whether trading is either beneficial or harmful to society. You can then make the decision as to whether you should be involved in this profession or not. I personally would look at if I could work as a trader while maintaining the mindset required by the science of getting rich and also if you feel as though you are in harmony with the intellingence of substance.

[Victoria Fabling]

Regarding the ethical dilemma presented by trading - these are my thoughts:

That when we all evolve a little more so we all learn that openness and honesty are useful prequisites to the survival of our planet, we will also be able to barter ethically and fairly.

One example - a lawyer and his wife both work and have need of daycare. Their daycare lady is going through a divorce and asks if the lawyer could give her some legal advice in exchange for daycare. In this case the number of hours could be equal. Another example, one I accepted - a man asked for board and lodging in exchange for any odd jobs especially carpentry ones -I accepted and we both knew in our minds and bodies when the expiry date was close.

[A Facebook User]

MORE LIFE TO ALL AND LESS TO NONE...(abbreviation: MLTAALTN)
GIVING PEOPLE MORE IN USE VALUE THAN YOU RECEIVE FROM THEM IN CASH VALUE…(abbreviation: GMIUVTRICV)

If your intention was more life to all and less to none, and giving people more in use value than you receive from them in cash value, then getting into the Trade Market is not something you would readily/enthusiastically set out to do. You're already in the Trade Market business and so that's why you're asking the question. But if you started with a clean (mental) slate and asked yourself “what business can I get into that would make for MLTAALTN and GMIUVTRICV?” the Trade Market would not readily come to mind; neither would it stick if its thought all the way through.

Getting into the Trade Market is what someone does who is thinking primarily about their own advancement first. If you started out thinking/asking what can I do that would make for MLTAALTN and GMIUVTRICV, you would not end up getting into the Trade Market as an answer to the question...not if you thought it all the way through. No, your desire would be geared more toward giving; giving people more in use value than you receive from them in cash value. You should ask yourself “what do you love doing that is of real value to a person’s life”, and then seek to provide that to people.

The truth (knowing the truth) is the greatest value you can add to someone's life. Help them to know the truth and whatever you receive from them in cash value will not exceed what you have given them in use value. It is not the truth that makes you free, but rather the truth that you KNOW that makes you free. That said, before you shoot me down as being some religious fanatic; notice I said it's the greatest value, not the only value.

At any rate, if your objective is MLTAALTN and GMIUVTRICV, then you would pursue a business/endeavor that would support, encourage, and allow you to take pride in doing just that. Right now, you’re not in a business that allows you to take pride in doing that because you’re not even sure if that’s what’s you’re doing, which is why you were led to pose the question. If you KNEW w/o a shadow of a doubt that you were GMIUVTRICV and creating MLTAALTN in your profession, you could take pride in what you do. But as it stands, you're not quite convinved that your current profession promotes MLTAALTN, and that's why you're asking this question.

Why not take a different approach by asking yourself what do you love doing that is of real value to a person’s life”, that you would take pride in doing, and that you would do for FREE, and then start following Wallace's suggested imagining/thinking techniques to provide that thing to people.

“People will go where they are given increase...” Please read from the 20th paragraph of the chapter entitled “The Impression of Increase” in Wallace's The Science of Getting Rich. Notice what the 21st paragraph says: “But doing all this, you must never lose sight of your vision of what you want....” which is more life to all and less to none if you're really understanding the overall message of Wallace's teachings.

You're suppose to be doing what you love to do, and what you’re suppose to love to do is create MLTAALTN and GMIUVTRICV. So, you're suppose to be doing what you love to do, and or mentally rehearsing doing it and making an abundant living from doing it. This is what I like to call “as ifing it”, which simply means mentally living it as if it were so. Read from the 16th paragraph of the chapter entitled “Thinking in the Certain Way”. “Live in the new house MENTALLY... The man who can sincerely thank God for things which as yet he owns only in imagination has real faith”. You're supposed to be doing what you love to do; and no one 'loves' working in the Trade Market. No one daydreams (constructively, of course) about getting into the Trade Market. That's not what someone whose main objective in life is MLTAALTN aspires to do, be, or become.

If you go to bed every night thinking about/visualizing/mentally creating a dream/life that centers on MLTAALTN and GMIUVTRICV, you would not find yourself thinking about and fantasizing about with enthusiasm the Trade Market, and how it will mean and create MLTAALTN and GMIUVTRICV, because it does not. No one who really understands the teachings of Wallace D Wattles aspires to be a gambler, or one who helps others become one; whether for entertainment purposes, psychological reasons, or otherwise.

You can't give someone more in use value than you take from them in cash value if you yourself have not taking the time to truly understand and KNOW what is of real value to a person in this life. KNOW what is of value to people first and then proceed to give/add (more of) it to their life. Again, the truth (knowing the truth) is the greatest value you can add to someone's life. Help them to know the truth and whatever you receive from them in cash value will not exceed what you have given them in use value.

In retrospect, let us not forget that the law of attraction is a law. You may very well attract the riches, people, and things you had set out to attract, but that does not mean you have attained to the Abundant/Powerful LIFE.

Attracting/getting what you want is not the end all pursuit of mankind; it's not salvation. Just because a system worked for you does not mean that you used it for what it was designed for.

Remember that when Moses' staff turned into a snake, the sorcerers and magicians standing by were able to replicate the same act and turn their staffs into snakes too.

In other words, there are many “gods”/ways/powers/principalities/methods/systems/counterfeits out there, but there is only One Supreme God – only One “Certain Way”.

You may be able to follow some instructions to get what you want, but if MLTAALTN is not your only/main want then you are not about your Father's business.

Until MLTAALTN is your hearts burning desire then it is with great difficulty you will understand Wallace's message(s).

You must decide on your focal point before you get started: Will it be MLTAALTN or getting rich?

The problem is most people don't functionally believe that having 'MLTAALTN and GMIUVTRICV ' as their dominant mental attitude will produce riches for themselves and for others. But Wallace taught that it most certainly will; and all the greats concur that it is far better to give than it is to receive.

Tony, if you see what I'm trying to say and can tighten (shorten) my comment up, or say it in a more brief way, please do. And for the record, Im just rambling here, sharing my thoughts on the subject. I don't know all the ins and the outs about the Trade Market Business. My response is based mostly on the the question itself, the fact that it had to be asked, and some of the other comments.

Thanks for listening.

[Tony Mase]

Hi Els, Lou, Jay, Pieter, William, Ken, Garry, Gary, Tony, Phil, Mark, Victoria, and Natalie,

Thank you for taking the time to share your insightful and most helpful thoughts on this subject...

I intend on revisiting this subject with a follow-up sometime after the first of the year.

Until then...

I wish you and your loved ones the very best of holiday seasons and a healthy, wealthy, successful, and happy New Year!

Thank you again,

Tony